I'm an Atheist, and I think religion is wonderful for many who find it comforting and use it as a guide to do good.  I am a live and let live kind of gal.   I think all people have good , and BAD in them, yes even Atheists.  I try and live my life doing as much good as possible, but I fail myself at times as any other human being will.  The ad you are speaking of was created by a bigot.  I know that not all religious people are bigots and there are certainly a few Atheist bigots around.  People are people. My fight is not with some of the very loving religious people in America (many are my friends), it's with the extreme (I'm right) who feel their way of life is the only way or else.  Whether you believe in God or not is irrelevant to me. However, if you are trying to force all Americans to live by YOUR beliefs and using hate to do so... you are a bigot.  Diversity is an awesome thing... it brings many different colors and ideas to the world.   When someone attempts to control or rule other people, it sacrifices the very freedom that many Americans will fight to the death for today. In fact thousands of people who are gay must Stand UP, But Shut UP because of these extremists.   I admit that the Atheists I know are very loving and they certainly don't care what color you are, who you sleep with, who you choose to love...etc etc.  They tend to embrace all people.  However, many people (both believers and non-believers) find certain religions, especially the extremist to be dangerous and hateful towards others who are different. Even towards people who simply follow another religion.  Yes religious people fight among themselves. Many uneducated believers actually think Atheists are Satan and that we are going to hell....  luckily none of this bothers us because there is no Satan or hell.   

Some Christians hate us because they think we are destroying their religion which is understandable, if that were true.   We can't destroy another's faith, nor do we want to. We simply do not want it FORCED on us.  We only ask that bigots not try to force all Americans to be Christian.  That is not much to ask, we are only asking for freedom.  We can all easily live together in harmony if we all Live & LET LIVE.

If you noticed by Dave's blog, most in Tehachapi condemned that ad.  Yes a few bigots jumped right in and applauded, but we already know who they are and we knew they would agree with this ad. Yes, there are hateful people in the world. However this certainly doesn't include all who are religious because as you can see by the many online discussions on this topic, many believers found that ad to be disgusting as well.

Did you know that Bill Ford is not a Christian?  He's a Buddhist like me... lol   In other words the Mohave Dealer told their boss to sit down and shut up. LMFAO

Also Christianity is fading because of things like this, The number of Christians in America is not 86% the number has fallen below 75% since 1990.  If I were a real believer I too would be disappointed.  I think more love and less hate would help this situation.

"'We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful god, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.' - Gene Roddenberry"

If this quote is supposed to be about the Christian God, based on the Bible, it is fallacious.  According to the Bible, God didn't create faulty humans.  He created humans as perfect beings with free will, just like He did with the angels.  Satan and his angels (now demons) fell because of pride, thinking they should/could be better than God, their Creator.  Humans fell because they decided that they should/could be equal with God, their Creator.  This choice is what brought sin and suffering into the perfect world that God created.

Continuing from this:

"Well, I wouldn’t want to spend eternity with some spirit who believes children should be abused by those they trust, and that murderers should get pardons while babies are dying all over the world, anyways."

According to the Bible, God doesn't WANT anyone to suffer.  Suffering is a result of the sin that is in the world, the consequences of it.  I want to make it clear that it is not because of one's individual sin that one suffers.  One will certainly suffer the consequences of their own sin - just like one would feel pain after kicking a wall or be less thirsty after drinking water, pure cause and effect type stuff - but it isn't a matter of "You committed adultery, you now have cancer" kind of thing that a lot of people seem to think that it is.  It's more like, because humans messed up God's perfection on earth, we will see the consequences of things not working correctly - or perfectly - such as cells mutating in ways that they weren't meant to, leading to a horrible disease or genetic mutation.

Because people and the world aren't perfect anymore, bad things are going to happen.  "Bad" people will hurt "good" people, such as children being abused, people being murdered.  Just because it happens does not mean that God condones or promotes it.  He allows us our own free will, and lets us see the results of it.  He will intervene if asked, and if He believes it to be the right thing to do.  He only wants what is best for us because He loves us, but that isn't always what we ourselves pursue.  We often ask Him to do things that wouldn't be in our best interest.  Or, we ask for things that we want to happen right now, but may not happen until later. 

Just so we're clear, I'm not trying to force my beliefs down your throat.  I am just trying to reply to statements that were made that may have been wrongly influenced or made as a result of not fully understanding what the Christian Bible was saying.  I am only responding from the Christian Bible, this doesn't apply to any other religions or their beliefs.  Believe it if you want to, or not.  I am not judging you either way.

Feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions.  I'm open for intelligent discussion, but not any arguments that assume stupidity because of personal beliefs (on my side or yours). 

Christ, Many people believe in God, however, many do not live by the Bible so I am told.  I actually read the Bible a couple years ago and found many passages to be absolutely beautiful, and then some were scary as hell, in fact they sickened me.  I learned a lot from the Bible and I took with me the much good I saw in it.  I left the rest behind.  I suppose everyone who reads the Bible as with any book will interpret it's meanings differently.  If I did believe in an all knowing, all powerful God, I can easily see how him/her/it would have created people as you say, who are perfect with a will of their own, and like a human parent , he/she/it would punish us for being bad.  Free will is what makes this world so beautiful and exciting and yes, at times evil, I wouldn't want to live in a world of perfect humans (whatever that is) without free will. (smile)  Thus, I totally agree with you on this.

Now, what scares me about your God is that he is not a loving God. I do not like the testing of people's faith that the Bible speaks about.. UGH   I won't kill anyone simply to prove my faith. That will never happen.  Perhaps you can enlighten me on that this.   Luckily I don't believe in God, or as it says in the Bible I would live a eternal life in hell.   Yes, I know a God can be all knowing and powerful and still be an evil control freak, but I wouldn't want that God to be my God.

I'm not trying to convert anyone, and I am not judging anyone either..  I love to live and let live.  I'm just curious as to why when I read the Bible I felt I was being manipulated, if not forced to believe in your God or else!!!!.  As I said I found the Bible rather scary at times. That's why I now read books by the Dali Lama and I enjoy the teachings of Buddhism...it's a very loving path to follow.  I do need spirituality at times... especially when I am irritated with people... bigotry, always drives me to read the Dali Lama.   Keeps me centered and it helps me to forgive hateful people. I understand that they simply do not know any better.   

It has been several years since I read the bible.  But what I did read scared the heck out of me ...I stopped when I got to the part of having young girls bed with older men.  It just did not follow the high moral standards and pillars of good citizenship that I follow.  I was actually shocked to read parts of it.  And I read it with an open mind as I felt there had to be some reason why the "reborn Christian" movement was so big--may I had missed something.  After reading it and talking to several Christians, I realized my beliefs formed a solid platform, not one that you picked and chose what passages to follow to fit your needs.

I am however, getting tired of being persecuted for my beliefs.  After my husband died, I had so many people ask me what church I belonged to and how I needed to get involved in a church.  When I tried to tell them my beliefs did not include much of what was in the bible, they would exchange "knowing" looks and tell me how wrong I was.  Instead of doing what a good citizen would do and offer a few words of condolences and ask what they could do to help, they chose to try to educate me on Christianity to the point of sending representatives from various churches out to my house.  My children, aged 9 and 10, told me they were getting pressure from their "Christian" friends to attend church, not doubt set up by their parents. 

Religion is a personal choice.  So let's keep it in the home and at the church. Stop trying to convert the world.

I still wonder now days if people are so fixated on church due to the lack of extended family and feel a need to belong to something. 

Well anonymouser, remember the flood? He destroyed the world's entire population (of course back then it was what, a couple 100,000?) except for Noah and family. Look what he did to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Supposedly if just one righteous man could be found he would spare them...so I guess the babies and children were horrible sinners too. We know women certainly didn't count...

I remember being in elementary school a few years ago (LOL I'm 50) and we learned about the Indians and how they believed that Gods that made it rain,  influenced fertility, and earthquakes were Gods rage (wow--sounds like he needs anger control classes!)etc.  I laughed with my friends that they could of been so naive and uneducated.  Now I realize Christians believe in the same thing, just a different God!

Makes me realize what a cult religion is, to give up what has been proven by science, abandon common sense and lose the ability make decisions on your own in the name of God.  What a powerful cult following  it has.  It scares me!

Joty--If he was a just God, why didn't he punish just the sinners and allow the non sinners, babies and children to live? 

FEAR GOD has a whole new meaning now.

Genesis 18:32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

I don't ever recall talking about God punishing people in my post.   This is a big topic and a long debate, and I wanted to keep it short, lol.

I do not, nor does anyone who interprets the Bible correctly, believe that ALL weather phenomena or the like are God's punishment for someone.  Yes, He used them in the past, and may still use them.  But I am not ignorant to the natural patterns of this earth.  I believe God sets them in motion, but not that they all necessarily "mean" something.

I said that natural consequences of the world not being perfect anymore would be seen, and that people would see personal consequences for their deeds (I don't think anyone can argue with that second one, whether they believe in God, or even good and evil).  It is no longer eye for an eye.  Yes, it was in the Old Testament, but Jesus changed all that (that's another long topic...e-mail me if you want to talk about it).

Joty, the Flood was a one time event because the world was so far gone that only one family could be found that had any good in them at all.  Being humanity's Creator and omniscient, God knew the majority were irredeemable.  However, He didn't want to condemn His entire Creation when there was a way to redeem it.  So He destroyed most of it.  Having Created it, I'd say that's His call.  However, God promised never to do that again (He obviously would know that there would never be a need to do it again).  The fact the God saved what He didn't have to in the Flood speaks of His love for us.  He repeats this grace in Christ.

God doesn't differentiate "horrible" sinners from "not so bad" sinners.  The presence of sin in the world is enough to seperate us from God completely (the definition of Hell).  We are sinners from the time we are concieved until the time we die.  Yes, babies are sinners.  Who has to teach a child to be selfish or mean?  No one.  NO ONE is "good enough" to save themselves, no matter what they do.  That's why God sent Christ to take away our sins in God's sight.  Christ WAS good enough, He was perfect and fulfilled the Law perfectly, yet sacrificed Himself to the ultimate consequence of sin: death.  Therefore, we reap the benefit of His perfection: We get a chance to be with God again forever (here on earth, then in Heaven).

That's all from me for now, even though I may not have addressed all the points I would like to since I'm out of time.  Again, I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone, just talking about them.  If the original blogger wants me to stop, I will.  If you want to talk more in depth, e-mail me.

Romans 3:

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Yes, Job, thanks!  I normally back up things with specific Scripture, but didn't really want to get into it at the moment.  If anyone wants that, e-mail me.

Job, what difference does it make? One or ten? There were children in those cities, are you saying they were unrighteous and deserved to die like that?

awsmom, your question is one of many I began to ask myself when I was old enough to start thinking for myself. One of my biggest problems is how educated women can embrace a book that was written by misogynistic men to whom women were not only second class citizens - but at fault for causing sin!

So, Christie and Job, what you are saying is that the infant who dies at birth is doomed? Or the mentally retarded who have no comprehension? And all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? What about the population prior to Christ? Dang - hell must be full!!!!

Deuteronomy 29:29

Job 38:1-41

The answers to your questions are complex and no one scripture will answer it. None the less, the answers are there. Below are some links to some short articles that answers your questions. You can also Google “age of accountability” and find more articles.

http://www.equip.org/site/c...

http://www.equip.org/site/c...

Gee, here's what Jesus had to say about the subject of kids...

Matthew 18:1-5

At that very hour the disciples came up to Jesus and said, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? So Jesus called a little child, and made him stand up in the midst of them, And he said, Truly I say to you, Unless you change and become like little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whoever therefore will humble himself like this little child, shall be great in the kingdom of heaven. And he who will welcome one like this little child, in my name, welcomes me.