Blaze: you say that "one's sexuality should not give them special protection or privileges." Please consider conventional straight marriage and you will recognize all of the special protections and privileges afforded to straight people by way of legally sanctioned marriage. Why should everybody not be afforded those same benefits? There is a constitutional principle called separation of church and state which should also be considered on the subject of marriage.

mykidsparent: you say that you don't know any Christians who want gays oppressed or undervalued. It seems abundantly clear from your posts that you think you're a Christian and that *you* in fact want gays oppressed and undervalued. Not only that, but nearly everything expressed in this blog by a person claiming to be a Christian would imply that they undervalue gays and lesbians and strive to continue their oppression. If you were referring to Christian *groups* ... well, there are a multitude of examples to choose from, my personal favorite being www.godhatesfags.com . Charming, no? 

Also, mykidsparent why would your family member who you characterize effectively as a lazy, good-for-nothing loser remind you of the gay and lesbian community? Pray tell! It disturbs me that you apparently have children. I hope that they grow up to think independently and form their own opinions about religion and life.

I have never understood why any group or individual would think they have a right to have a say in who sleeps with whom. Because let's face it, it isn't the rest of the relationship that's intolerable to these people. Why does anybody care? Why does anybody think it's their business? Don't tell me it's because the bible says so. I'm not buying that. The bible says all sorts of crazy things about what happens to a woman who's raped and what the rapist has to pay her father. As a society, we disregard those portions of the bible because they're outdated and ... well, crazy.

To close, I'd like to say that I don't believe our public secondary schools should be teaching one way or the other about hetero- or homosexuality. But then, they shouldn't be teaching about creation theory in science either, and that's what I was taught when I went to Tehachapi High. One would hope that kids' parents were teaching them to be tolerant and open minded, but clearly that isn't the case. Don't bother with accusing me of being a left-wing wacko - it won't fly. I'm a registered Libertarian.

Just to clarify, the last anonymous post above is NOT the same anonymous that posted the history of homosexuality in the Christian Church and I resent this person trying to pervert my message.

I feel deeply saddened that this is this person's view of the world.  And, Civil Unions most certainly do provide the same rights as a marriage license.  They provide that both partners have inheritance rights, can obtain property together, joint credit, they provide repercussions to a dissolution of the union in the same manner that a divorce applies to a marriage license.  We are now talking semantics.

This person states that Christians see all people as sinners.  I wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment.  As Jesus clearly dictated, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."  That doesn't mean that as a Christian, I cannot and should not use discretion with whom I associate, but I am NOT willing to judge people as sinners, simply because of idealogical beliefs.

Sign me anonymous no. 1

Christians see all people as sinners.  It's not that Christians don't want gays to marry because of gay-ness.  They just want marriage to be what God said it should be.  They're just following the laws of their religion.

Oh, and as of now, civil unions don't allow the same rights as marriage, and that is what should be addressed on the voter ballot. 

Either way, parents should have the rights to teach their kids.  period.  No school should be delving into this area.  (Unless it's a private school with this as their academic schedule, and parents sign up their kids for it.)

Sparks - Your questions about whether Christians hate gays, don't want to permit marriage, etc. are questions that have been battled back and forth over for quite a long time.  Personally, I know of no group, religious or otherwise where there is total tolerance, peace and love.  If you are a Christian you are commanded to "...love thy neighbor as thyself."

As for where these teachings about homosexuals being sinners came from, one has to do a lot of research on history.  During the time the teachings of Jesus were actually written down, the Hebrews and Christians were living under the mighty control of the Roman Empire.  At this time in human sexuality there were Roman Emperors who were pedophiles and had a predilection for young boys, promiscuity was rampant, both bi and homo sexual whether one was genetically predisposed to homosexuality or not, and there was a sexual hierarchy in the Roman Legions where homosexual acts were perpetrated on the weaker soldiers by stronger soldiers as a sign of power, much as occurs in our prison systems today.

Now, with this context in mind, the new testament was written and by the way the old testament was written much under the same atmosphere.  Both the old and new testaments state that homosexuality is a sin.  However, keep in mind that the King James version of the text was written translating into old English from the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic languages.  There were not words and phrases that adequately translated the original intent of the older languages to English.

A for instance is that we have three different versions of the ten commandments.  There is the Hebrew version, the Catholic version and the Protestant version.  The Hebrew version says, "Thou shalt not murder."  The Catholic and Protestant versions say, "Thou shalt not kill."  BIG difference in meanings here.

With all this history in mind, my own personal belief is that there are people who are born homosexual.  I do not believe that the Jesus Christ I know would condemn these people because of their birth.  Rather, I believe he condemns promiscuity in all its forms.  I personally do not like having the flamboyance side of any gay lifestyle thrown in my face with extra privileges and respect demanded any more than I would care for a stripper, hooker or a pimp demanding extra privileges and respect based on their lifestyle.

As for marriage, this is not just a Christian right.  This is a cultural right that is within all cultures.  Watch National Geographic sometime and you will see that this right, while not the same as our custom, is within tribes that have rarely ever seen an outsider.  Marriage is a vow between two people to live together as one, letting no one come before their vows.  If people pledge and honor their vows, then I personally do not feel that a sin has been committed.  Plus, when we sin, we Christians can repent and ask for forgiveness. 

Then there is the government side of this spiritual union to document this relationship and track it.  Frankly, the 'government' state of matrimony doesn't provide either partner with as much protection as people are led to believe.  In California, legislation was passed allowing gays to use the Civil Union agreement which is just as binding as a marriage license, it is recognized in all other states and allows the government to track what you do just as well as a marriage license and you get the joy of paying fees for all of this government monitoring.  Personally, I prefer less government involvement and advocate the cultural ceremony of one's choice and a good set of Revocable Trust papers, Powers of Attorney and Advance Directives, plus you eliminate the marriage penalty tax.

If people are bound and determined to let the government monitor even their most intimate private lives, there will always be this argument for the gay community to be allowed to have a marriage license as opposed to the civil union document.  Then, there will also always be people who love each other and find a way to make it work out and in their hearts they will know if they have sinned or not.  This is where our evangelicals often go astray.  And, when you choose a religion your purpose should not be to identify with a particular group.  Your purpose is to improve yourself by identifying with an ideology that you believe to be true and if the case may be, to worship the deity you have chosen.  Read, read, read and study...you will find your way and develop your own belief system, but don't be surprised when most people to believe exactly as you do.

What it boils down to is this..."Judge not lest ye be judged."  BUT, I do NOT want my children taught the liberal values that have engulfed our school system.  I will teach my children not to bully, tease and name call.  I will teach my children to have respect for others along with a healthy helping of yes ma'am's and no sir's.  I will teach my children to have self-confidence and stand for their beliefs.  And, my children will survive the school system because we discuss what they learn and, heaven forbid, I also monitor their computer and TV activities.  By golly, I think they call that, "...being my kids' parent!"

Sparks,

Christians believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God.  Whether or not we agree or feel good about what the Bible says, we follow its tenets.

In this, the Bible, says that homosexuality is a sin, and an abomination (that's a quote) to God.  The Bible also outlines specifically the guidelines for marriage.  Man, woman... one on one, no polygamy, etc.  It describes in extreme detail the design that God has for sex (it embarrasses me to even read it, it's so explicit).

The Bible talks about infidelity, how he hates it.  It teaches about any sex outside of marriage being bad for the participants (premarital, extramarital, and the like).  It's common sense to me, since I have been the victim of a cheating spouse.

It isn't easy to be a Christ-following Christian.  It is HARD.  But let me tell you, when you see out-and-out miracles forming your life, it's not so hard to stand up and be counted as Christian.  Many people who call themselves Christian are indeed not, and it's sad.  Love isn't all feel-good, sometimes it's ToughLove.  We want the best for people's lives, and sometimes that means the truth hurts. 

It's very simple, but not for the simpleminded.  There are many faiths, some of which marry gays inside the church.  Most won't, because it's so specifically  illustrated in the Bible what God wants for marriage.  But politcal correctness is infiltrating the more conservative churches--after all, who wants to be labeled "intolerant?"

I don't know of one Christian that doesn't believe that the homosexual relationship should not be protected under our governmental laws.  But why can't we just call it Civil Union?  The same protection, coverage under insurance, etc, but a name that differentiates between the religious, God-centered ceremony, and the legal one?  I don't understand, really, why it's a big deal. 

I really didn't intend on this thread being a gay vs. not gay issue.  I wanted to air the happenings at the high school, that's all.  :-)

Keeping the kids safe and maintaining parental rights is number one.  The moral judgements to be left at home, and the 3R's at school.

ZU- I have been reading these posts, and I don't see anything intolerant at all. 

Where is your tolerance for people with differing beliefs as you?  No one is out there trying to hurt anyone, except maybe those that are intolerant of conservative values.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I've lived here for 10 years now and the people here are very accepting, very supportive.  No bigotry against me or my partner in the least.  Once we were even invited to church!  :)

More questions to add to mykidsparent's

• Isn't it the parent's job to instill values like these?  I mean, if my mom wanted me to be sure I had a sexual experience in high school, would it be the school's job to tell me she is wrong?  Or if my mom was a lesbian, would it be the school's right to tell me that she is sinful or wrong? 
• Turned around, if my mom wanted me to stay celibate during high school, would it be the school's place to tell me that she is wrong? 
• This applies also to gang behaviour, illegal immigration, gothic dress, etc.  If my mom tells me it's wrong, isn't it her right to teach me?  If she is teaching me that it is okay and good,  isn't it her right to teach me this?  What right does the school have to teach me that my mom is wrong?  Why put the wedge between student and parent? 
• Where will my loyalties lie--with the "feel good" answers, or with my mom, who I might, in my teen-ager-dom, be rebelling against in this phase of life? 

I would just think that if lessons like this are part of a curriculum, they should be advertised as such.  If my mom wants me to be taught certain values, she can enroll me in a school or elective class that promotes such values.  (like Christian schools, Jewish schools, diversity courses offered, and so on.)  But this is a PUBLIC school, and they only advertise their abilities to teach the basics, the reading, the science, the math, the social studies. 

Sparks:

I do not think anyone here has said that gays should be second class citizens.  In fact, it looks like the posts here reflect a tone of love and consideration.

The student that talked about the boy in her/his class is telling you what the school's perspective is, and what her/his experience was.  (I wasn't surprised at her/his post, as this is the story many students tell of their own experience at THS' Diversity Week.)

I do not know one Christian that wants gays to be oppressed or undervalued.  Equal protection, equal rights, is what I see.  But the promiscuous behavior or blatant sexual rallies are inappropriate, no matter which side of the fence you hang your legs off of.  I think you must misunderstand someone here, or maybe I am missing something.

I know that you are right about most gays and lesbians being normal, everyday people.  But I, as a Christian, am embarrassed and distance myself from so-called-Christian leaders that are behaving badly and misrepresenting my faith.  Why can't the same be true of any social group?  I do not, and no one has to, be tolerant of bad behavior. 

This entire thread has reminded me of a family member I have.  He is married to my sister-in-law, and runs around with drug users (although he claims not to partake), shaves his head, has those really big holes in his ears, a bunch of tattoos and thinks it's okay to bring his elementary school child to Ozzfest.  He refuses to work, lies around playing his XBox literally all-day-long.  My sister in law works full time, and struggles to support her family, and this guy literally won't get off his couch to help.  She is fully responsible for the childcare (her parents care for the child during the day because he won't do it), she does the home upkeep, housecleaning, and grocery/cooking.  She is depressed and exhausted.  But she says that while he promised to change after marriage, she did marry him knowing this lifestyle was his preference.  When he is questioned as to why he behaves this way, he says that we need to accept him for the way he is.  Well, we do.  We accept him for being irresponsible, lazy, and a bad parent.  But that isn't okay with him--he thinks we are being judgemental and bad (like the student described).  He goes around telling people that he is oppressed by the family, that they do not accept him. 

I think this entire thing has less to do with the gay agenda than it has to do with the removal of any good judgement from our kids' lives. 

It has to do with the school opting to not cover curriculum that is necessary, but instead, opting to indoctrinate the kids into this "tolerance" that is so very intolerant of religion and traditional family values.

A question:  How would parents and the school feel if suddenly the Christians took a week to indoctrinate the students into the faith?  Not telling the parents, not making them fill out a consent form, etc.  How would that go over? What about "tolerance?"

It isn't about "tolerance" people.  It's about removal of faith in God.  A wolf in sheep's clothing, so to speak.  Just arm yourselves, empower your kids through education, and reiterate your own faith/moral lessons that YOU want them to take into their adulthoods.

My VP at THS said that they are using the Columbine thing to teach this diversity program.

Are they gonna teach that if the kids had just been nicer, those boys wouldn't have shot them?  that the boys that killed all those kids were oppressed and teased, so they were the victims?  That if we have boys in our school that threaten us and scare us, that we should be nice and just hand over our lunch money?  That if we don't, it is our own fault when they take it out on us?

I doubt they will teach that the parents should be more involved, that there should be more discipline, or that the school should actually discipline.

I am afraid that they will teach the types of things that lead to 9/11 being America's fault because we are too _____ (fill in the blank)

This post caught my eye, since I was there last year for this "Diversity Program".

Essentially, the program is teaching that if you have any judgement (good or bad), that you are BAD.  If you think that any activity is bad or wrong, you are BAD.  If you believe in God, His morals and his laws, and you use those beliefs in your own life, you are BAD.  All activity, legal or illegal, (re: immigration), All activity sexually, All activity in different beliefs (even those that want to kill Americans) is GOOD.  If you think any of it is bad, you are BAD.  If you want to pray in school, you are BAD.  If you want to promote gays and minorities, you are GOOD.  If you want to study hard and get good grades (thereby passing up some of your slacker friends) you shouldn't feel good about yourself, you should feel badly and berate yourself for your friends that couldn't make it. 

Last year, in my class, one student who was gay got up and pranced around in his women's clothing and boa slung around his neck, flitting around the classroom, announcing to all of us that we had to LOVE him now, and that he was OK.  He went on and on, making a huge scene.  The kids went nuts--some cheering him on, some sitting back and just watching (I was one of these), and because we weren't cheering him on, we were told that we were intolerant and BAD.  WE were the out-of-line students.  The teacher was there and had NO control over this.  It was a major scene and carried over through the entire week.  This kid went on to "come on" to some of my guy friends (who, by the way, were NOT gay), and they were really upset.  When they talked about being upset, THEY were told that THEY were BAD.  This guy just got worse and worse through the school year.  By the end of the year he was wearing makeup to school, high heels, half-shirts, etc.  The dress code?  Not for him.  The school just accepted it.  One of my guy friends decided that the pressure to be gay was too big, and now he wondered that since had never had sex with a girl, he must be gay.  All of this was brought on by this stupid "Diversity" thing.  (So, to the person that said that the school claimed that this was not a homosexual thing--they aren't telling you the truth.)

As far as the Christian thing and gays go, Christians love people.  We are taught to love people, and if those people are acting out knowingly in sin (ie homosexuality) then we are to love the person but not the sin.  We won't enable sin.  We won't tell them that it's okay to be sinful.  But we love the person enough to share this honesty with them.  If they need something, we are there.  If they are sad, we listen.  If they are happy in something that is truly good, we rejoice with them.  This is the bottom line of Christians and sin.  It's the media (anti-God, anti-Christian) that sell this idea that Christians are big hate mongers.  It's not the truth, but the sale of this idea sure has done a good job getting God out of America.

Christians are taught to be proper.  Not to be a sexual diversion or distraction.  These gay pride rallies, etc., do not sit well with Christians, not only because they are promoting a sinful behavior, but because they are very sexually distracting, and really are degrading to the people that are in them. 

Sparks:  there has been no scientific evidence linking gay behavior to genetics.  I have actually studied that a lot, since I have a friend that is struggling and is looking for answers.  There have been lots of studies, but every one of them links it back to how the kids were raised (ie no father figure or an overbearing mother. or some external familial experience) and of course, effeminite men are not accepted by our society.  thank goodness for the now-called-metrosexual!

Also, you asked about government involvement in marriage.  This was actually started by the Romans, to ensure the continuing of their population base.  The gays had taken over so much that there weren't enough babies being born to replace the dying population.  So they created a tax break for making babies and man-woman marriage.  This is the same as what the US does.  They don't teach this stuff in schools, (they should!), but some of us take the time to find out for ourselves.

These are the sorts of lessons that the kids would benefit from.  Not this Diversity training.  Or should it be called indoctrination?

Thanks to you parents for being proactive.  I felt sorry for those kids that didn't have parents that would call and just be involved.  My siblings are still there at THS, and they are pretty well ready for the "diversity program" and how to get through it.  but I am sure that there are lots of kids whose parents either don't know or don't care enough to see what's being taught.  And the school banks on that!

Isn't it amazing that the schools have time to teach our children these 'politically correct' subjects but the kid down at the Burger King, or any other store in town, can't even count back change to you if the register isn't operating.  Without complete parental involvement, we have kids in Middle School and High School that can't perform the basics: Reading, Writing and 'Rithmetic.

Ask most any kid hanging around with his pants falling down a simple question, i.e.," Who fought in the Civil War?"  Even MBA graduates that were interviewed last spring couldn't answer this.  Ask students to 'estimate' something, i.e., "If it takes 1 gallon of paint to paint 3 8' x 10' walls, how many gallons do you need in order to paint 4 8' x 10' walls?"  The answer you'll get will involve a piece of paper, a pencil and a lot of algebra calculations, but you won't get a "common sense" answer and probably not even a correct answer.

In the mean time, the teachers that were teaching when I was in school, came to work in professional attire, they were called Mr. or Mrs. and commanded respect in the classroom.  Surprise...we were educated.  And, I was always told by my parents that if I got a spanking in school, I would get a spanking at home.  Amazingly, I was a well behaved and respectful student.  I said yes ma'am and no, sir and so far have made it through life without being too maladjusted.

So, the next time we look at all the money we throw at education, parents need to get serious, organize and demand from your taxpayer funded school system that your child actually receives a basic education.  Reading is fundamental, so is math and science, politically correct left-wing agendas are not necessary at this stage.  The kids will pick that up soon enough in college.

One of my favorite quotes, "If you are not an idealistic liberal when you are young, you have no heart.  If you are not a realistic conservative when you are an adult and have responsibilities, then you have no head."