One more thing, there are plenty "non-liberals" that come here and are respected.  Because the state what they believe without criticizing and lumping everyone in a category.  I could be wrong on some, but I think some are: GregL, Joty, Lori, countygirl, madkow, there are more but I can't think of them right now.  They get tired of people saying hey, you are one of us and lets get them.  It doesn't work that way.  It doesn't matter what the views are as long as it is respectful.  I apologize for some of my statements, but tried to be civil at first.  I am not asking for an apology from you, just wanted to remind myself to not let others push my buttons and act beneath who I am. 

Interesting point Colitas, why don't we go one further on who is who and do our own poll, and everyone identify if they have Christian beliefs, or consider themselves Christian. I'll be glad to go first,  I am Christian and politically independent. I don't trust any politicians.

Why don't you start a new blog, Starbucks?  A poll blog!  Sounds fun!

> It doesn't matter what the views are as long as it is respectful.  I apologize for some of my statements, but tried to be civil at first.

Read my posts from the beginning. I was trying to be impersonal. Nevertheless, I was mocked and attacked personally, patronized etc. Interestingly, my adversaries could not find anything logical or coherent in what I wrote about relationship between science and religion, religion and atheism. This tells me something. Either everything I wrote was stupid, or it wasn't acceptable for somebody's views.

When I write that atheism is only about here and now, I simply repeat what I was taught by atheistic experts when I lived in Hungary under communist regime, before emigrating. I didn't mean to attack personal views but give a little perspective how certain assumptions (e.g. no other reality but material, no other ethics but relative etc), have implications for our understanding of future or uniqueness and sanctity of human life. It would be easier to discuss it over a beer.  I learned English at the age of 30 and it is easy to attack my communication style. However, I lived through those wars of atheists over Christian and I saw much fanaticism. Actually, some of my relatives lost their lives because of their Christian beliefs. I watch the American scene now, and have some uncomfortable flashes from the past...

Abortions were not scarce prior to birth control...they were done in back alleys and not talked about.

I am not a Christian, neither am I an atheist. I am Gnostic (not Agnostic). I am a registered Democrat. I don't neccessarily vote that way all the time however.

I think if I had to put a label on it I would be a Gnostic.  But I am baptized Catholic and supposedly raised that way.  I think I am a registered Republican ( I have move so much in the past a few years I don't know anymore what I am registered as)  My views have been changing over the years so I think I am going to mark "Other".  I just got  Voter Registration Card in the mail yesterday.  The only problem with marking "other" is....as the letter states" Of you select "Other" as your party affiliation, you are eligible to vote for only nonpartisan offices in any primary election."  I don't like that.

I believe in God, I'm non-denominational, I believe my relationship to God is private and personal and don't feel the need to defend Him. I don't feel the need to put others down for their religious or non religious beliefs. 

I don't trust politicians either. I vote for who my husband votes for because I don't believe a word any of them say.  We register as democrats.

Thanks to the few people who did comments on how they believe, or choose not to, I agree with you Olivia that it is private and personal, that's why most Christians have just rolled over and not said a word as they are attacked almost everyday by someone in the media, what if gay people or Black,or some other minority was attacked in print or in school , like how this boy's beliefs were in his school?, All Hell, ( pun intended) would break loose against the teacher, but you can attack Christians all day long, that's what is not fair and Christians must defend.

There's only one problem with your comparison of Christians to "other minorities" in this country, Starbucks1.

I think you can figure out what that is...

I always wonder why some Christians have such a desire to claim persecution. They'll point to some nebulous "attack" or declare offense at being limited as to where they can proselytize their idea of Christianity, but it always seems to be somewhat congratulatory. Martyrdom drips from their words...

Get over it. You admit you're the majority in this country; if you want to know about real persecution, go talk to George.

George, I know I said this before but I feel the need to say it again.  I apologize for doing the same thing that I accused you of.  I lumped you in the category of "a bible thumper" that just goes along with what others say.  I believe there are true Christians and those who just like to judge.  It might not be my belief but I respect yours.  You are looking for what you need.  You seem to be really doing your "homework".  Again please except my apology, and I truly hope you find what need for your own self and happiness. 

>Get over it. You admit you're the majority in this country; if you want to know about real persecution, go talk to George.

Well, I was raised as an atheist. I believed that God doesn't exist and everything can be rationally explained and designed. I left the Eastern Block before the communism was over. Yet, it was a shock when it was over. We were conditioned that this was "the only way in the only right direction". The system  based on best ideals of French Revolution and reason, yes REASON.

Christians were the majority, yet they were persecuted. It didn't bother me, even when I heard stories of my disappearing family members (protestants) . After all, I was on the side of reason! And I firmly believed in it. I believed that Christianity and all religions must be wiped out from the face of this Earth so mankind would be happy. It wasn't in  the Eastern Camp, but I chose not to see it.

After the system built on REASON collapsed, I started looking at religious beliefs. I passed gnostic beliefs when I learned that Cathars proclaimed that everything material is evil and created by satan (they had precursors in Bogomils and eastern sects). If Europe were dominated by Cathars, nobody would bother to study the material world. There would be no science.

This turned my attention to Catholic Church, which proclaimed that matter was created by God and gave its blessing to St. Thomas Aquinas who is a father of Natural Philosophy. Incidentally, Newton and other founders of science were natural philosophers.  I looked at protestant denominations, but there are too many of them and all claim to correctly interpret the Bible. Recently, I started reading early Church Fathers who walked with the Apostles and shared their views.  They look very Catholic to me. I am leaning towards becoming a catholic.

In the communist block, any expression of religious views was suppressed, ridiculed etc. At best we were taught that such views must be "private" (read "hidden"). I had similar experience when studying at some secular universities in the US. I am even more surprised that religion must be private, but not sexual orientation. Homosexuals are encouraged to come "out of closet". There is much unhappiness about "no ask, no say" policy in the military introduced by Bill Clinton. Yet, I was in the military and I witnessed very uncomfortable and unwanted advances of men. Such news spread like a firestorm and poisoned the atmosphere.

Starbucks exactly how you as a Christan being attacked. What is your definition of a Christan attack. Is saying happy holidays instead of merry Christmas a attack? That pisses me off when i hear it but i don't take it as an attack on Christianity i take it as political correctness BS that has taken over this country. I don't want god taught in schools, Is that an attack? But i want a kid to be able to close his eyes bow his Head and be allowed to pray as long as he is not disrupting the class. To many people wear there feelings on there sleeves and are hurt and offended on regular biases and then there are those that know what their beliefs are and aren't intimidated by words because they know who they are. there will always be some one that disagrees with your beliefs or point of view  and that's OK for they have a right to their opinion.I don't see the attack on Christan's.

>Starbucks exactly how you as a Christan being attacked. What is your definition of a >Christan attack. Is saying happy holidays instead of merry Christmas a attack?

I am sure that Starbucks can speak for himself. However, I see parallels between what I experienced in the Eastern Block and what I see here.  This teacher attacking Christians for "Jesus glasses" which supposedly make them irrational, is one example. This guy has an unfair advantage over Christian teachers who cannot address his attacks directly (reportedly because of separation of church and state).

Recently, city fathers in a forgotten town asked to take down Christmas lights. They claim that they... hurt environment. Stupidity or hidden obsession? Secularists impose abortion legislation in schools (girls can have abortion without informing parents). In Oregon schools the secular board decided to administer contraception pills to 12-year olds without involving parents. They couldn't administer any aspirin without parental consent. Needless to say that contraceptive pills increase the risk of breast cancer by 33%, or bigger if administered to young women and girls. Sex is a weapon of choice against religion. It is being imposed very early, there are zelots distributing condoms to children etc. It goes even further: in one Colorado High School an invited "expert" encouraged "experimenting". Specifically drugs and homosexual sex. It goes on and on. Attacking Christmas trees is least dangerous.

oohchild, what happened to this student in class?, his religious beliefs were ridiculed, this was wrong and Christians should not have to put up with it in school from their teacher, what if the teacher had said, " take off those Gay lifestyle glasses, that's just stupid", the ACLU would have been down their in a flash, and you would be supporting them,

so, get over it oochild, leave religion and intolerance of religion out of the classroom ,

>George, I know I said this before but I feel the need to say it again.  I apologize for doing the same thing that I accused you of.

Actually I liked many of your remarks. They made me think. I make mistakes by seeing many atheists from the communist experience perspective. I hope to become a good Christian some day. No bad feelings! Merry Christmas, or whatever you celebrate.

George